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Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 14:39:00 - [1] - Quote I'll be working on this Calculations of Costs Compared to Ingame Income to Derivate the actual amount of real Ingame Profit. I am busy with other things for now and should be back in around 4 to 5 hours to try to complete this thread or post. I'll just throw in some numbers for now so that it is easier to see and compare. This won't include all calculation except double the income to generate half of profit or 50% of profit due to cost margin. Internet Cost: $35 for a month (30 days+) is equal to 2 PLEX which is equal to 1.18m ISK (at 590m ISK per PLEX on the market in Jita IV). That is equal to $35 for 720 hours (at 30 days x 24 hours) . = 1.63m ISK / hr in relative equivalent costs. Or 3.26m ISK per hour = 1.63m ISK profit / hr. 4.89m ISK income - costs = 3.26m ISK profit. If $55 for a month , it is equivalent to 3 PLEX at 1.77m ISK. = 2.45m ISK / hr cost equivalent related to profit margin. @ $5 / 3 hours internet costs = 42.5m ISK / hr income at 590m ISK for 1 PLEx. (4 x 3 hours = 12 hours = $20 = 1 PLEX.) @ $40 / 25 hours internet costs = 47.2m ISK / hr income @ $35 / 21 hours = 56.1m ISK / hr = 1.18b ISK for 2 PLEX. @ $100 / 100 hours = 1.77b ISK for 3 PLEX = 17.7m ISK / hr. @ $105 / 103 hours = 3.54b ISK for 6 PLEX = 34.36m ISK / hr equivalent cost related to profit margin amount. (Notice the margin change to around 50% or double... Realize that it is not only the related equivalent income but also includes the relative costs.) @ $210 / 206 hours = 7.08b ISK for 12 PLEX = 34.36m ISK / hr. @ $490 / 459 hours = 16.52b ISK for 28 PLEX = 35.99m ISK / hr. Also note that the 17.7m ISK / hr in 100 hours is not only the cost but also the related equivalent income. That also does not include the EVE Pilot cost of time in game time equivalent costs like PLEX use for game time. Once those costs are added in the equation, the total profit will be less and total costs higher. It will also increase the income in ISK per hour required to achieve the same results.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 16:05:00 - [2] - Quote Solstice Project wrote: This thread belongs to Market Discussion. Yes, I wish too. I was going to put it in Market Discussion. However, it included lots of internet costs which are not ingame. I figured would not be an EVE Market Discussion. I would like to link to it in Market Discussion as it does relate to the EVE Online ingame income and profit. That is also related to small and large business. I didn't have the time to come back from my other business yet and almost had to go to work for 4 hours or more. I'll be back in a few hours. I just fixed 2 or 3 characters and bought a Mining Foreman Mindlink.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 20:28:00 - [3] - Quote Corrections: Internet Cost: ERROR #1: @ $5 / 3 hours internet costs = 42.5m ISK / hr income at 590m ISK for 1 PLEx. (4 x 3 hours / $5 = 12 hours = $20 = 1 PLEX.) = $49.16m ISK / hr instead of 42.5m ISK / hr as listed above. @ $35 / 21 hours = 56.1m ISK / hr @ $40 / 25 hours internet costs = 47.2m ISK / hr income = 1.18b ISK for 2 PLEX. To be Added: @ $60 / 37 hrs = 1.77b ISK for 3 PLEX = 47.8m ISK / hr @ $75 / 50 hrs = 2.36b ISK for 4 PLEX = 47.2m ISK / hr ERROR #2: @ $100 / 100 hours = 2.95b ISK for 5 PLEX = 29.5m ISK / hr. @ $105 / 103 hours = 3.54b ISK for 6 PLEX = 34.36m ISK / hr equivalent cost related to profit margin amount. ERROR #3: (Notice the margin change to around 50% or double... The above is 'Not even close to 50% or double.' Even though the following is true: Realize that it is not only the related equivalent income but also includes the relative costs.) ERROR #4: Also note that the (17.7) 29.5m (instead) ISK / hr in 100 hours is not only the cost but also the related equivalent income. That also does not include the EVE Pilot cost of time in game time equivalent costs like PLEX use for game time. Once those costs are added in the equation, the total profit will be less and total costs higher. It will also increase the income in ISK per hour required to achieve the same results. + Internet Cost as 'A' / hours of time as 'B' = equivalent ingame market value in ISK as 'C' for amount of PLEX as 'D' covered by the Internet Cost ('A'). = million of ISK / hr as 'E' required to cover the internet cost equivalent & to deduce, to make a profit. This compared to minimizing internet cost by only learning & trading on Bazaar. One also has to include real cost with available costs & organize within budget.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 21:49:00 - [4] - Quote Baggo Hammers wrote: "Derivate" is typically a noun. "Derive" works better and makes you look smarter. ty, typo, I'll fix it. Rhivre wrote: The comparison of costs is only valid if you only use your internet to play eve, and for no other purpose, otherwise you have to deduct and adjust for the time spent on reddit, imgur, xhamster while connected to eve. Additionally, since isk comes in while you are sleeping, you need to adjust for this The comparison of cost is in relation to the cost to actually use the internet for a period. It doesn't include multi-client which can reduce the cost although again that limitation occurs and can lead to losses. This comparison of cost is already including a mention of other costs. I do not include internet time spent writing on forums or reading, and if this activity can be done without internet costs. You do have to deduct and adject the time spent since if you only do update your skills to trade on the Bazaar you will limit your active internet login time in the EVE ingame client. As for the ISK coming while sleeping, it is possible to adjust for it as well. I have no ISK coming while I sleep and I removed my PI installations. Most of my current income comes in the form of sales with the highest rate of return by the Trader. In fact, the reason he succeeds so well is only due to the fact that he sells most of everyone else items and production. He also gets the best rates on those transactions and can do it from afar (within region). This doesn't include Market Discussion trading with stocks or other investment, or ISK for editing work.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.10.18 22:32:00 - [5] - Quote Inxentas Ultramar wrote: None of this matters at the edge of scram range. But please continue. I can only answer for free from 9 to 4 weekdays. I just lost my first jump clone going to null sec and trying to test if I could enter where I left items. I saved some screenshots.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.19 15:56:00 - [6] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Morpheus Niminen wrote: He's trying to figure out how to get "free" internet, assuming he converted isk to PLEX and then sold it for IRL cash. Start a lottery... Of course not, I was only referring to the fact that I can read or write on forums for free as compared to EVE Online game time for which I can only do by paying. You are obviously turning my words around. I can also browse the forums from another source than Monday to Friday in the weekends for free but there is no guarantee of the scheduling. I will refine and transfer the ideas of this thread to another one to avoid highjacking.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.19 17:13:00 - [7] - Quote Rath Kelbore wrote: I didn't read this, but I'm almost certain a simple link to a spreadsheet would have been better. 'A (simple) link to a spreadsheet' from where would have been or would be better?? I could still fix it if it is possible. You can also EVE mail me if that is more preferable to you as means of communication.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.21 19:07:00 - [8] - Quote Vis Aldent wrote: @ $3 / hour internet cost = x million ISK / hr income at 590m (595m now) ISK for 1 PLEx. (7 x 1 hour / $3 = 7 hours = $21 = 1 PLEX.) That is equal to over 84.28m ISK per hour. Vis Aldent wrote: ... So, for around $32.95 x 10 (+/- additional administrative costs) = $329.50 = Free internet for life. That is equal to 130k ISK / hour or even less if that life term is good for over 10 years. Add $15 or $20 for a buddy (or more) which is equal to another PLEX for the cost of 1 month subscription. That would further increase the cost of making a profit on all the pilots. Any subscription which is 3 months or longer (like those yearly subscription rates) would be lowering the profit margin. (Compared to the 1 month terms that is. Also to note, it is less costly to pay 1 month than use a PLEX to convert to subscription time. The difference is about 25% which was the limited US sale value. I have to increase my asset capital. I am better to buy PLEX from CCP and sell PLEX on the ingame market (for ingame ISK) until then. The income difference ratio is 648 times greater, whether in amplitude, parabolically or hyperbolically or other.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.22 19:19:00 - [9] - Quote Don't worry Sexy Cakes, it's just meant for graphical representation so to speed up reading data in some form... (It doesn't make the extraction of data for reuse easier though...) https://secure.eveonline.com/buy/ 12 Month 360 days + Advanced Cerebral Accelerator - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $8.00 a month $95.95 total You save $88.45 = divided by 12 = $8 / mth @ 720 hours per month = $0.011 / hr extra cost additional to the previous equivalent costs / income . But that is not the number we are looking for. What we need is the equivalent amount in ISK per hour compared to PLEX value. $95.95 - 2 PLEX @ $34.99 = $60.96 - 2 PLEX @ $34.99 = $25.97 - 1 PLEX @ $19.95 = $6.02 = 5 PLEX = @ 607,180,001.00 for 3 in Jita IV - Moon 4 Navy, and 2 @ 607,000,000.00 = 3,035,540,003 ISK = 3.035b ISK. 3.035b ISK / 12 months = 252,961,666 ISK = 252m ISK divided by 720 hours in one month = 351,335.64 ISK / hr = 351k ISK / hr. Minus the value of the Advanced Cerebral Accelerator (check in contracts as it's not listed on the market). + the previous 130k ISK / hr or less = 481, 335 ISK / hr. @ $8.99 / mth (for 6 months, $53.95) = + $0.01248 / hr @ 10.32 / mth (for 3 months, $30.95) = + $0.0143 / hr @ $13.95 / mth (for 1 months) = + $0.019375 / hr = $27.9 / 2 months = 1 PLEX / 2 mnths = + 421,527 ISK /hr 84.28m ISK per hour + 421,527 ISK /hr = 84.701m ISK / hr. A little bit more or less with normal EVE Time @ 3 months @ $38.95 6 months @ 71.70 12 months @ 131.40 (I'll have to calculate the exact ratio later.) But the point is to find the equivalent value in PLEX (only full amount, no remainders). Compare that amount with the ingame market value which value fluctuates.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.23 13:34:00 - [10] - Quote Holgrak Blacksmith wrote: If you spewed this rubbish onto a wow forum you'd probably be the smartest guy on the page. Here you're a guy who can't do math. I didn't have the time to calculate the last parts at normal EVE time rates. Nevertheless, the rates are a bit higher (even if that is by a very small amount). The rates of equivalent ingame costs varies between 0.5 million ingame ISK per hour to over 84 million ingame ISK per hour. There are also other costs, like collateral losses which I will probably link in the Market Discussions later on.

Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.23 14:49:00 - [11] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Some sort of introductory paragraph would be keen. Your OP just jumps into the middle of your complicated inner thinking without explaining much why we should care or try to follow your math. Please fix this transgression, thanks. It is more for referrence than to be followed to be honest. The numbers are there to allow for verification in case of doubt or scepticism. The numbers also serve for accuracy although accuracy is not the derivative of the precise ratio. The point is to avoid further useless internet costs of playing EVE Online without making profit. It is not hard to spend over $400 to $1,000 just because of losses and promises of gain based on lower costs. Everyone else with lower costs can manage to get some ISK but at higher costs only 'valid' Character Bazaar transfer make up for the costs. I currently had to calculate this to prove the cost of buying PLEX were more worthwhile for me than others. Let's say compared to mining at 2 million per hour with 3 Ventures and 1 Cyclone, the Cyclone being for rats prevention. Mining in 0.5 with rats that can destroy new Ventures in the time it takes for the lag to dissipate on mutil-client is not profitable. Add in the equation an unnamed Skiff challenging it to a duel -vs- it's 100 dps with reduced turrets from 4 or 5 to 2. I was lucky I didn't loose the 25m to 100m worth Cyclone which would further add to the profit versus costs ratio. After webifying and Warp scrambling my 5 drones were destroyed and the Skiff T2 drones were killing me. The High end Battleship EHP vessel wasn't even down to 50% shield. $400 to $1,000 easily is worth the 28 PLEX offer which is at current market value: 615m ISK x 28 = 17.220b ISK, enough for 5 months or more in Null sec with protection from Alliances or Coalition. Or enough for a nice pilot or 2, or a mining fleet, or more skill than my current levels all at under 6 million SP. On the higher end of that amount, it is more than 32b ISK for twice the numbers listed above. (+ I never posted on the WoW forums except once to say hi around the beginning.) 39m SP for 7b ISK start 45m SP for 13b ISK buyout 74m SP for 25b ISK b/o (carrier capital and dread pilot super cap.) 99m sp for 34b ISK b/o PvP Carrier and Dread pilot. 73m SP for 15b ISK start 25b ISK b/o http://eveboard.com/pilot/10_Percenter 107m SP for 38b ISK or lower offers welcome. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Kiamoso
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.23 17:56:00 - [12] - Quote No Means No wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: What in the actual ** is the point of this **? the point of this thread is to show its actually a LOT better to spend 3 or 4 hours working at mcdonalds and buy plexes with that money than being in front of a monitor countless hours clicking f1 and headaches with market orders and this and that (bunch of bull) just to make the same or even less isks. Isks income ratio: 1x work at mcdonalds: 10x playing eve buddy program? what for? when you can just work couple hours more at mcdonalds and buy a character off the market already skilled and ready to go? Watch out with the buddy's too. But multi-character training doesn't cost much more internet time even at $3 / hr or more around Brazil. That goes up to around $100 / hour or more by satellite over there... But, running multiple buddy requires higher EVE Time costs payments as well. It takes me 10 minutes or less to update my Skill queue lately. I used to have to patch from start due to the reboot array scheme which took 30 minutes to log in. I think they made a deal with the place I log ingame from so that I don't have to do the whole 30-50 minutes update anymore. I sometimes have some problems to get the client to login quickly. It only goes to Cargo Bay from the Captain's Quarter, which then takes longer. It's worth more to buy PLEX (up to a limited number) depending on the cost of play time. It is due to the potential cost of playing without enough ingame income. If you make 100m+ ISK / hr I'm currently being offered, then it's not worth the same. However, it's still cost me 10 hours or so to get my ingame ISK income level to cost to get that ingame income ratio covered. Which 10 hours of ingame time still translates to $15 for me. I save $5 on the PLEX value. However, the remaining $5 would allow me to make 300m ISK which is only 50% of a PLEX. I'd then still be better to buy a PLEX instead of spending on Null Sec Rental. At 150m per hour or more, then it becomes more worthwhile. I could cover my costs in 8 hours which is still $15. But the 4 hours extra would let me get 600m ISK which is just under the current value. At 175m ISK per hour or more, than I make a slight profit, but it takes me the time to do it. PLEX value is amost instant although that it gives no Skill Points. At 200m per hour income, it'd take me 6 hours to get 1.2b ISK cost covered. The remaining 6 hours from the equivalent cost of a PLEx at $20 for 1 would give me 1.2b. The value of 2 PLEX for the cost of one, where I start getting free PLEX value or , free game play. To make a PLEX on top of my game time would require more income. 250m / hr in 5 hours = 1.25b ISK. 7 hours = 1,75b ISK - EVE Time = 2 PLEX + 536m ISK (almost a free PLEX). (There are also other problems like annoyingly being told to shut up. This when a password sequence not supposed to be there pops up. Having problems with the French keyboard scheme when the system has no way to control it.)
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.25 12:47:00 - [13] - Quote I will add a post that I saved and didn't publish later, even though I could have it scheduled for posting on http://Tumblr.com and linked from here. But I will now add, prior to the above, that I am currently gathering data on the costs of learning. Those costs include the login time, the patching time if any. There are a few other details like the planning phase and the new (hardcopy) Print-outs I will now do.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.26 14:21:00 - [14] - Quote Other Additional costs to be included in the equation to derive the Actual Income or Costs for me so far were : 1. The cost in time and money it took me to run and intall EVE Wallet from which I exported Ingame business data. 2. The indirect cost of delays caused by the installation of a new printer while having to print a resume. That resume was intended for a 9 to 5 interview window valid for a work contract including a $400 + training (offered for free). This 2nd derivative added into the equation more than doubled my original total costs. It also make the EVE Online ingame income reduced by another half or more. 3. That is in fact even after other possible discrimination occured to another guaranteed job offer I had. This would have costed me another $333 (taxes included) but would have generated $2,400 a month in income. It is not directly related to the printer change above (or that printer going to a private residence for a new business model). However, the money from the second job offer with paid trraining to pay for the first job offer training to get $2,400 is a cheesy scheme. 4. It also obviously delays my EVE Online ingame income which to this point is limited to the Character Bazaar due to cost per benefit ratio. It looks more like specific data analysis of data field used by intelligence to delay and hide their scheme as if discrimination.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.26 15:48:00 - [15] - Quote To Be Me wrote: This thread is kind of pointless (not disregarding the op effort) but if youre playing eve suposedly youre not worrying about internet costs. The game is just not for you, accept it and move on, stop playing. Cause who the hell cares about internet costs in 2013 anymore, not anyones fault you live in a 3rd world country. The $800 + is not about internet costs. I can get internet free for while others overloaded with Spam critics and junk have to pay per bytes of transfer. I do stop and my characters are still available for Character Bazaar. Please don't try to give hell to my kids by forcing them to be enslaved in a 3rd world country (aside for working there to break oppression). You're misinterpreting me. Regardless, the point is that without knowledge of hidden costs, you can't understand what income you need. One then can't calculate the difference and risk to get entrapped in the sense of worthlessness you refer. One has to want to be blind not to see the day to day use that can be applied to this analysis. It does avoid me losses of costs and allows me to protect my work , rights, intellectual property and other properties. I know that if I do lose a finite amount of time, resource, money, even ingame ISK, that I can use the record of loss to prevent recurrence.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.27 16:02:00 - [16] - Quote To Himnos Altar, the forums are not free. Although that resources to read and write are also required, on top of the paid subscription costs. To Xen Solarus, I'll move to thread content to my own website so that it will avoid potential conflict. I do have access to spreadsheet, in fact, even design and copyright my own. Feel free to contribute positively. To Derath Ellecon and Krixtal Icefluxor, fixed. To Krixtal Icefluxor about IP rights, and I also design 3 party program which I will link later on if possible. I was referring to my own IP and not infringing on CCP's rights, or inciting to, or promoting it. Other potential costs include: 8 banned accounts. The $5 starter pack offer could be nice and save 50% of the cost of 2 pilots with a Buddy at $20. I checked it out and created or updated a Steam account though I didn't buy it since I paid for more time. I have new Bomber ready for fleet at 30. I also have one previous post that I saved for later and never posted yet.
Vis Aldent Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.10.28 13:05:00 - [17] - Quote I'll be replying by EVE Mail later on but probably not until a week or 2. I'm busy with other things. I wrote I'd be publishing about this on another medium to avoid being made to look bad.

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